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Author Topic: I may have found Robert Flowers this morning!!!  (Read 9379 times)
William Flowers
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« on: March 13, 2009, 07:11:56 AM »

While I think I may have found the origins of Robert Flowers this morning, I want to verify it first. I'm sure everyone interested will understand that I won't go further until I have verified this.

I'm very excited and I need to calm down a bit before I begin the verification process. I just want everyone to know the long search may be over.
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William Flowers
William Flowers
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2009, 05:06:40 PM »

This morning I believe I finally found the origins of both Robert Flowers and James Astles:

1) In the 1816 [untitled] Relief Book, both Robert Flowers and James Astles are listed as having been in the 53rd Regiment of Foot, allowing the possibility that both men may have been recruited in the same place at about the same time. Robert lists his total time in the service, which ended in late 1783 or early 1784, as 11 3/4 years.  James Astles lists his time in the service, which also probably ended in late 1783 or early 1784, as 12 years. Both were discharged from other units which they had transferred into between initial recruitment in the 53rd and final discharge.

2) Both a James "Asles" and a Robert "Flower" were baptised at St. Mary Whitechapel, Stepney, London, England: Robert on 24 Feb 1749, James on 5 Feb 1755. The fact that such uncommon surnames, particularly "Astles" or one of its spelling variants, are found in the same register is just too coincidental. This is definitely them!  These families knew each other for a long time.

3) James Astles eventally married young Sarah, a daughter of Robert Flowers and Alice Pennington.

The parents of Robert were "John Flower" and "Elizabeth." The parents of James were "James Asles" and "Ann."

More to come on this very exciting find!!!

Added on 29 Oct 2010:

Today, 28 Oct 2010, Susan Sylke found a burial dated 7 Feb 1762 for a Robert Flower, age 12, of Mile End New Town, in the St. Dunstan register. Both St. Dunstan and Mile End New Town are known places connected to John Flower and Elizabeth Wright, parents of the Robert Flower of Whitechapel that I had previously identified as Robert Flowers of New Carlisle. This burial is probably the burial, then, of Robert of Whitechapel, making it impossible for him to be Robert Flowers of New Carlisle.

More work needs to be done to make sure that there are not two Roberts in this area of the right age. Right now, that approach does not appear promising.

The search for Robert Flowers of New Carlisle is on again! He will be found. It's just a matter of time.

This somewhat affects the strength of the conclusion that James Asles of St. Mary's of Whitechapel is the James Astles of New Carlisle. I think, though, that the basic conclusion is that the Asles/Astle/Astles is so uncommon, and the probable birthdate of James Asles fits so well with the age of James Astles of New Carlisle, that it is still probably the correct conclusion.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 05:34:19 AM by William Flowers » Logged

William Flowers
Marilyn Astle
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2009, 08:37:53 PM »

Congratulations Bill and thank you! This is all amazing and points my research in a whole new direction. I was not optimistic of ever tracing my Astles to the UK.
Marilyn Astle
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Marilyn M. Astle, Ph.D.
Susan Sylke
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2009, 06:41:46 AM »

You did find him but I must say you must print how the jingle went.  Unbelieveable you made a believer out of me.
Sus Laughing
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HuntingtonGdaughter
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WWW
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2009, 08:26:41 AM »

Cudos William!!!! Very Happy
TinaMarie
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Darlene Campbell
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2009, 07:03:20 AM »

Congratulations Bill ... what a find!!!

Darlene
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William Flowers
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2009, 01:32:29 PM »

I was also able to confirm Robert Flower's baptism on a film of the baptismal register of St. Mary Whitechapel just as it was in the IGI. They lived across the street from St. Mary's, a little to the north-northeast, in a place called "Black Lion Yard,"  a center for weaving throughout the 18th century, and some years both before and after that century.

The homes of Robert and James Asles, assuming Robert was still living at Black Lion Yard when James was born, were approximately 1000 ft apart along a north-northeast/south-southwest axis with the church in between them.

Update:  See next message immediately below.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 07:29:27 AM by William Flowers » Logged

William Flowers
William Flowers
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2009, 07:20:27 PM »

I was also able to confirm Robert Flower's baptism on a film of the baptismal register of St. Mary Whitechapel just as it was in the IGI. They lived across the street from St. Mary's, a little to the north-northeast, in a place called "Black Lion Yard,"  a center for weaving throughout the 18th century, and some years both before and after that century.

The homes of Robert and James Asles, assuming Robert was still living at Black Lion Yard when James was born, were approximately 1000 ft apart along a north-northeast/south-southwest axis with the church in between them.



I have now looked twice at the film that contains Robert Flower's baptismal entry. It is almost illegible, particularly when it names the location. After the second look at the film, and blasting as much light as I could through it, I now think that the residence of Robert and his parents was "Red Lion Yard," not "Black Lion Yard." Red Lion Yard is near Leman St., and just a few hundred feet from the area where James Asles resided with his parents.

The residence of John Flower and Elizabeth was definitely in "Black Lion Yard," though, when Robert's older brother was baptised, also at St. Mary Whitechapel, on 23 Sep 1744.
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William Flowers
William Flowers
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2009, 08:29:35 AM »

The marriage of the most likely parents of Robert Flower of Red Lion Yard, Whitechapel, Stepney, Middlesex Co., England, John Flower and Elizabeth Wright, occurred on 10 Nov 1741 at St. Dunstan and All Saints Church in Stepney England.

Other likely children of this marriage include:  Elizabeth, bpt. 3 Aug 1742, St. Dunstan; John, bpt. 23 Sep 1744, St. Mary Whitechapel; Hannah, b. 2 Mar 1754, bpt. St. Dunstan; James, b. 29 Sep 1756, bpt. St. Dunstan; Mary Kamp?, b. 2 Aug 1860, bpt. St. Dunstan.

The churches of St. Mary Whitechapel and St. Dunstan and All Saints are about a mile apart in Stepney.
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William Flowers
Marilyn Astle
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2009, 08:14:51 PM »

I was also able to confirm Robert Flower's baptism on a film of the baptismal register of St. Mary Whitechapel just as it was in the IGI. They lived across the street from St. Mary's, a little to the north-northeast, in a place called "Black Lion Yard,"  a center for weaving throughout the 18th century, and some years both before and after that century.

The homes of Robert and James Asles, assuming Robert was still living at Black Lion Yard when James was born, were approximately 1000 ft apart along a north-northeast/south-southwest axis with the church in between them.



I have now looked twice at the film that contains Robert Flower's baptismal entry. It is almost illegible, particularly when it names the location. After the second look at the film, and blasting as much light as I could through it, I now think that the residence of Robert and his parents was "Red Lion Yard," not "Black Lion Yard." Red Lion Yard is near Leman St., and just a few hundred feet from the area where James Asles resided with his parents.

The residence of John Flower and Elizabeth was definitely in "Black Lion Yard," though, when Robert's older brother was baptised, also at St. Mary Whitechapel, on 23 Sep 1744.


I have also looked at the baptismal entry for Robert Flower on two different days. My notes say "Red Lion Yard."
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Marilyn M. Astle, Ph.D.
cgordon
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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2009, 09:44:07 PM »

In the Christening records of Elizabeth, Hannah, James and Mary Flower(s) at St Dunstan's, the occupation of their father John Flower was given as "weaver".

Weaving was taking place at Black Lion Yard from at least the 17th century. In the book "The London Weavers' Company, 1600-1970" by Alfred Plummer, I found the following passage in a chapter titled "In London under James I":

"Northwards, from Norton Folgate to Shoreditch, we find weavers, in gradually increasing numbers, in Coles Alley, Hore Alley and Swan Yard. Outside Aldgate and in Whitechapel weavers were working in Tongs Yard, Castle Street, Sixth Alley and Black Lion Yard."

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Chris Gordon
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« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2009, 10:06:08 PM »

I think someone posted that Black Lion Yard has possibly been demolished in the Blitz during WWII. According to a wiki (on Jack the Ripper), the street was demolished only in the early 1970s. There is a picture of the street in 1961 at:

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Black_Lion_Yard

"Black Lion Yard eventually became known for its jewellers, described as the 'Hatton Garden of the East End'. It was earmarked for clearance in 1966 and despite petitions and media coverage, it was demolished 1972-5. Black Lion House stands near the site today on Whitechapel Road."


There is a little more information in a piece entitled "WHITECHAPEL WALK (FROM WHITECHAPEL STATION)" at:

http://www.ibiblio.org/yiddish/Places/London/london.htm

"If you look lower down towards Aldgate East Station you will see Black Lion Yard Building. This building absorbed Black Lion Yard itself. Black Lion Yard merged into Old Montagu Street and combined 21 shops of whom 12 were jewellers and several bookshops. This was the Hatton Gardens of the East End in its time and every prospective Jewish bride always went with her mother to Black Lion Yard to buy her Sabbath candles. At the end of Montagu Street Mr. Evans kept 40 cows and motif on his gates in Yiddish - MILCH, FRISH FUN DI KU."

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Chris Gordon
William Flowers
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2010, 03:23:26 PM »

Today, 28 Oct 2010, Susan Sylke found a burial dated 7 Feb 1762 for a Robert Flower, age 12, of Mile End New Town, in the St. Dunstan register. Both St. Dunstan and Mile End New Town are known places connected to John Flower and Elizabeth Wright, parents of the Robert Flower of Whitechapel that I had previously identified as Robert Flowers of New Carlisle. This burial is probably the burial, then, of Robert of Whitechapel, making it impossible for him to be Robert Flowers of New Carlisle.

More work needs to be done to make sure that there are not two Roberts in this area of the right age. Right now, that approach does not appear promising.

The search for Robert Flowers of New Carlisle is on again! He will be found. It's just a matter of time.

This somewhat affects the strength of the conclusion that James Asles of St. Mary's of Whitechapel is the James Astles of New Carlisle. I think, though, that the basic conclusion is that the Asles/Astle/Astles is so uncommon, and the probable birthdate of James Asles fits so well with the age of James Astles of New Carlisle, that it is still probably the correct conclusion.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 05:34:50 AM by William Flowers » Logged

William Flowers
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