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Author Topic: The two James Astles of New Carlisle  (Read 49421 times)
William Flowers
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2009, 01:37:51 PM »

I was able to look at a film of the baptismal register of St. Mary Whitechapel today, and I was able to confirm James Asles baptism and his parents as they were in the IGI. The lived on Lambeth St. in Stepney. The street is no longer there--like the church, probably bombed out in the blitz.

The homes of Robert Flower and James Asels assuming Robert was still living at Black Lion Yard when James was born, were approximately 1000 ft apart along a north-northeast/south-southwest axis with the church in between them.
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William Flowers
Marilyn Astle
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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2009, 08:39:55 PM »

The Astle Y DNA Project has been launched through Family Tree DNA https://www.familytreedna.com/. Scroll to the bottom of the page. Under About The Family Tree DNA Database, click on Surname Projects where you will find us under A.

We want to learn if/ how we might be related to other Astle(s), etc., families in North America, England and elsewhere. In particular we are interested in determining if the two James Astles who landed with the Loyalists at New Carlisle, Quebec in 1784 were related. We have started by testing a descendant of the younger James Astles and are eager to have a descendant of the elder James Astles participate in the project in order to make DNA comparisons.
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Marilyn M. Astle, Ph.D.
William Flowers
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« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2009, 07:15:33 PM »

Marilyn Astle has sent along this image of the marriage register entry of the parents of James Asles of Whitechapel, the 53rd of Foot, and New Carlisle. (James Asles and Ann Banks, 27 Jan 1749 at Saint Katherine By The Tower, London, England.)

Wouldn't it be great if all parish register entries were this legible!  Marilyn used a digital camera with image stabilization for this wonderful low-light shot.


* Asles-Banks_marriage_1749.jpg (29.98 KB, 1000x667 - viewed 814 times.)
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William Flowers
Marilyn Astle
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2009, 01:54:19 PM »

I have obtained from Library and Archives Canada two land-related documents from the Gaspe in which the name James Astles appears. Microfilm C2562 contains a number of documents relating to a ten thousand acre grant of land to merchant John Shoolbred of London in and near the Bay of Chaleurs. A number of people sent petitions of objection, saying they had prior claims. One such document came from a group identifying themselves as Loyalists at New Carlisle. I have not yet tried to determine which James Astles this is.

Following is the text of this document as I have transcribed it. I will also insert a scanned image of the signatures if I can figure out how. If I were reading this document out of context I would read the dates as 1705 within the body of the document and 1707 at the bottom. However, the scribe seems to be using a figure 8 that is lying down.

17 July 1787 [Added later in different hand]

To His Excellency the Right Honor-
-able Guy Lord Dorchester, Captain Ge-
-neral and Governor in Chief of the Colonies
of Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick
and their Dependencies, Vice Admiral
of the same General and Commander
in Chief of all His Majesty’s Forces
in the said Colonies and the Island of
Newfoundland Jca Jca Jca

Memorial of the subscribers
Loyalists at New Carlisle, Chaleurs Bay

Humbly sheweth

That Your Memorialists having been conveyed
hither in order to take up and improve the Lands designed them by Govern
-ment made application to His Honor Lieutenant Governor Cox for a
grant at and adjoyning Maguasha; of which they received the fullest
assurance from Him as well as the Honorable John Collins Esquire Deputy
Surveyor General, in August last, provided Government approved of
their Treaty with the Savages, whenever it should be completed; That
some of Your Memorialists had applied for said Lands so long ago as in
August 1785 and confidently relied on obtaining the same. But
finding Mr Shoolbread including that Tract in a Survey now actually
making by Virtue of a Mandamus subsequent in date to Your Memo
-realists said application and assurance aforesaid. Therefore
Humbly pray that Your Lordship will be graciously pleased to take
into consideration this Matter, on which the Settling and Welfare of
Your Memorialists so greatly depends

New Carlisle      Samuel Bryson   Abraham Brown   Thos Man
17th July 1787      Valkert Sprong   James Brunson   John Jeffries
                 James Astles   Nathan Starnes   Isaac Man
                                John Brooks       Willm Tuttle   Isaac Man Junr
                 Stephen Purcall   William Coulter   Mylander Waugt--?
                 Elias Loveless   John Caldwell   James Coldwell





« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 03:42:32 AM by Marilyn Astle » Logged

Marilyn M. Astle, Ph.D.
William Flowers
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2009, 02:12:54 PM »

I have obtained from Library and Archives Canada two land-related documents from the Gaspe in which the name James Astles appears. Microfilm C2562 contains a number of documents relating to a ten thousand acre grant of land to merchant John Shoolbred of London in and near the Bay of Chaleurs. A number of people sent petitions of objection, saying they had prior claims. One such document came from a group identifying themselves as Loyalists at New Carlisle. I have not yet tried to determine which James Astles this is.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've never seen this document before. This is a great find, Marilyn!

If you'd like, I'll either show you how to add a scanned image to your post, or I'd be happy to do it for you. Let me know.
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William Flowers
Marilyn Astle
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« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2009, 04:21:23 AM »



Signatures from 1787 petition opposing Shoolbred grant.


* document 1787 png0001.png (102.08 KB, 2036x648 - viewed 801 times.)
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Marilyn M. Astle, Ph.D.
Marilyn Astle
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2009, 06:45:28 PM »

This follows up Bill Flowers' wonderful find of James Asles and Robert Flower, both baptized in the same East London Church.

I checked the Family Search site (www.familysearch.org/) where I found both James Asles and Robert Flower’s baptisms. Next I searched the site for Asles (exact spelling off) for England. I got 537 hits in the IGI, only 13 pertaining to London. Six of these were of great interest to me. In addition to James Asles baptized to James and Ann Asles on 5 Feb 1755 in St. Mary Whitechapel, Stepney, London, I found 3 more children baptized in the same church with the same parents’ names:

20 October 1756 Ann
21 Feb 1759 Elizabeth
19 Nov 1760 John

In addition, Elizabeth was baptized 01 Mar 1753 in Saint George In The East, Stepney, London to James and Ann Asles.

Finally, I found a marriage of James Asles to Ann Banks on 27 Jan 1749 in Saint Katherine By The Tower, London, England. I think the chances are good that this couple produced all the above children. I will order the relevant films and post any updates.


I have viewed the films for the above baptisms of children of James and Ann Asles.

Film 94693 contains the baptisms of James (1755) and Ann (1756). James is identified as the son of James and Ann, Lambeth Street. Ann is daughter of James and Ann and the address looks like Lambert Street.

Film 0094694 includes baptisms of Elizabeth (1759) and John (1760). This film is a negative image with dark background and light writing. The address Lambeth Street is given in both cases.

Film 0578787 shows the baptism of Elizabeth. I include the image here because it photographed well and because it included an occupation for the father, a street address and what I have determined from study of other entries to be age in days. Elizabeth having been baptized on March 1st at 12 days old was thus born February 16th 1753. As James and Ann who married in 1749 appear to be her parents it is not likely she was their firstborn. James and Ann were living in Church Lane in 1753 and James was a milkman. What did that job involve, I wonder?

The occupation is not consistent with the hypothesis that this James was the elder James Astles of New Carlisle, who was a tailor according to the list for the August 3, 1784 drawing of lots at Paspebiac, as cited by AD Flowers in Loyalists of Bay Chaleur. However, as people did change occupations back then too, I have not ruled out this possibility.



* IMG_2814 crop.jpg (58.63 KB, 640x343 - viewed 745 times.)
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Marilyn M. Astle, Ph.D.
Marilyn Astle
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2009, 07:36:17 PM »

The attached images each include two James Astles signatures. The signature beside the date 17th July 1787 (note the lying down 8) is an enlarged version from the image already posted on this forum as 1787 signatures. The other signature is from an 1802 document that will be the subject of a separate posting. Do they belong to the same man? Four family members and I concluded that they likely do.

The second image is an upside down version of the first one. Looking at signatures upside down is a trick my sister the bank manager has learned to use to make comparisons. She speculated that perhaps James developed arthritis or another degenerative condition that produced a rather shaky the signature 15 years later.

What do you think?

* signature comparison right side up.pdf (10.68 KB - downloaded 513 times.)
* signature comparison upside down.pdf (11.28 KB - downloaded 508 times.)
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Marilyn M. Astle, Ph.D.
Marilyn Astle
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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2009, 05:11:02 PM »

I have posted the 1802 petition elsewhere on this forum: Sources - General Sources - 1802 Petition from Gaspe Inhabitants.

Or use this link: http://www.beyondgrandmasattic.com/forum/index.php?topic=379.0

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Marilyn M. Astle, Ph.D.
William Flowers
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2009, 07:29:46 AM »

The attached images each include two James Astles signatures. The signature beside the date 17th July 1787 (note the lying down Cool is an enlarged version from the image already posted on this forum as 1787 signatures. The other signature is from an 1802 document that will be the subject of a separate posting. Do they belong to the same man? Four family members and I concluded that they likely do.

The second image is an upside down version of the first one. Looking at signatures upside down is a trick my sister the bank manager has learned to use to make comparisons. She speculated that perhaps James developed arthritis or another degenerative condition that produced a rather shaky the signature 15 years later.

What do you think?

I agree that the two signatures looks very much the same.  The only inconsistencies that I see between the two are that the lower-case "a" in James appears to have been formed differently.  Also, all the letters in the surname are not connected in one of the signatures as they are in another. I've seen the disconnection of letters in my own signature over time so I don't think that's a problem at all.

Let's hear from more of you on this one.
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William Flowers
Susan Sylke
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2009, 03:47:09 PM »


After looking at this I feel it is “most likely the same person” however the signature on the bottom is probably that of a older man and a younger man on top.  I noticed the A looks the same I noticed the J is about the same M has that little curve e and s on James is the same. I have seen this with my own ancestor William Flowers signature looks really good on a lot of documents and on his  will one would not even know that he could write. So I would say with my limited knowledge same person on top younger man bold handwriting and  one on bottom older man but I feel when looking at the signatures there is enough similarity to propose same person wrote these  Susan
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William Flowers
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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2010, 03:32:02 PM »

Today, 28 Oct 2010, Susan Sylke found a burial dated 7 Feb 1762 for a Robert Flower, age 12, of Mile End New Town, in the St. Dunstan register. Both St. Dunstan and Mile End New Town are known places connected to John Flower and Elizabeth Wright, parents of the Robert Flower of Whitechapel that I had previously identified as Robert Flowers of New Carlisle. This burial is probably the burial, then, of Robert of Whitechapel, making it impossible for him to be Robert Flowers of New Carlisle.

More work needs to be done to make sure that there are not two Roberts in this area of the right age. Right now, that approach does not appear promising.

The search for Robert Flowers of New Carlisle is on again! He will be found. It's just a matter of time.

This somewhat affects the strength of the conclusion that James Asles of St. Mary's of Whitechapel is the James Astles of New Carlisle. I think, though, that the basic conclusion is that the Asles/Astle/Astles surname is so uncommon, and the probable birthdate of James Asles fits so well with the age of James Astles of New Carlisle, that it is still probably the correct conclusion.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 06:23:38 PM by William Flowers » Logged

William Flowers
Marilyn Astle
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« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2011, 12:37:05 PM »

The Astle Y DNA project finally has some results and they are exciting. Although we have tested only two people so far, they match on 36 of 37 markers. This means they are closely related - the probability that they shared a common ancestor within the last 8 generations is 88% and within 10 generations is 94%.

One of the men tested is a 4th great grandson of James Astles (1755?-1823) and Sarah Flowers. The other man is a 4th great grandson of James Astle(s) (b. c.1740-1745, d.1815) and Elizabeth MacLean. The birth years of the two James Astles are based on various assumptions with different researchers drawing different conclusions.

We now know that the two James Astles who landed on the Gaspe in 1784 were closely related. From our Y DNA participants back to their earliest known Astle(s) ancestor is 6 generations in each case. If the two Jameses were not father and son, which they still could be if the birth year assumptions err in the right directions, there is an 88% probability that they were within 2 generations of sharing a common ancestor, i.e., first cousins. They could also have been uncle and nephew or even half brothers with the same father and different mothers. Presumably they could also have been 2nd cousins, etc.

The next steps as I see them are to get more Astles, preferably those with a good genealogical paper trail, to participate in the Y DNA testing and to continue exploring the usual genealogical sources. Since one hypothesis is that my James, soldier and husband of Sarah Flowers, came from London, we specifically want a male Astle with a documented London heritage to test.
 
The Y DNA results with our two participants confirm what many of us believed to be the case and give us a solid basis for further research to link these two Canadian Astle(s) families and to tie all of us back to the UK.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 05:59:35 PM by Marilyn Astle » Logged

Marilyn M. Astle, Ph.D.
William Flowers
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« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2011, 06:08:10 AM »

The Astle Y DNA project finally has some results and they are exciting. We have tested only two people so far but they match exactly on 37 markers. Quoting from the Family Tree DNA website: “A 37/37 match between two men who share a common surname (or variant) means they share a common male ancestor. Their relatedness is extremely close with the common ancestor predicted, 50% of the time, in 5 generations or less and over a 95% probability within 8 generations.”

One of the men tested is a 4th great grandson of James Astles (1755?-1823) and Sarah Flowers. The other man is a 4th great grandson of James Astle(s) (b. c.1740-1745, d.1815) and Elizabeth MacLean. The birth years of the two James Astles are based on various assumptions with different researchers drawing different conclusions.

We now know that the two James Astles who landed on the Gaspe in 1784 were closely related. From our Y DNA participants back to their earliest known Astle(s) ancestor is 6 generations in each case. If the two Jameses were not father and son, which they still could be if the birth year assumptions err in the right directions, there is a greater than 95% probability that they were within 2 generations of sharing a common ancestor, i.e., first cousins. They could also have been uncle and nephew or even half brothers with the same father and different mothers. Presumably they could also have been 2nd cousins, etc.

The next steps as I see them are to get more Astles, preferably those with a good genealogical paper trail, to participate in the Y DNA testing and to continue exploring the usual genealogical sources. Since one hypothesis is that my James, soldier and husband of Sarah Flowers, came from London, we specifically want a male Astle with a documented London heritage to test.
 
The Y DNA results with our two participants confirm what many of us believed to be the case and give us a solid basis for further research to link these two Canadian Astle(s) families and to tie all of us back to the UK.


This is indeed exciting news! Please keep us posted as more new developments arise.
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William Flowers
Marilyn Astle
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« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2013, 06:01:40 PM »

I wish to connect with researchers of the elder James Astles who landed in 1784 with wife and children at what became New Carlisle, Quebec.
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Marilyn M. Astle, Ph.D.
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